Pkelly72 Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Quick update and I hope I'm explaining this correctly - Cylinder 7 had 120 psi while all others had around 165 psi. They think its either the fuel injector or something deeper that has to do with the valves?? Anyway, I was given the choice to R&R the injector switching #7 with another or buying a complete new one for #7 and just have it replaced and put back together hoping that solves the problem. Total cost with new injector $810. If this doesn't solve the problem it will not be good. In the meantime, I will buy new plug wires just because I feel like throwing another $110 into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeWare Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Quick update and I hope I'm explaining this correctly - Cylinder 7 had 120 psi while all others had around 165 psi. They think its either the fuel injector or something deeper that has to do with the valves?? Anyway, I was given the choice to R&R the injector switching #7 with another or buying a complete new one for #7 and just have it replaced and put back together hoping that solves the problem. Total cost with new injector $810. If this doesn't solve the problem it will not be good. In the meantime, I will buy new plug wires just because I feel like throwing another $110 into this. So, a compression test only tells part of the story. They should follow that by a leak-down test to find where the 'leak' is. Since they already have the plugs out this will take a few minutes per cylinder. That will tell them immediately if it is the injector, rather than just using the "try it and see" approach. Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHappel Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 What Graeme said. Any decent mechanic will know what a leak-down test is and have the gauge to do it. (I just realized I've been mis-spelling Graeme's name in my past posts ... sorry about that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandRonB Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 I joined the club. I just drove my 1999 Bosch p38 home today. I couldn't be happier. Welcome Peter! Another resource for you: http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-mark-ii-p38/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 They claim it was done and the tech said it was a 60% loss?? Or had 60%. Anyway, tech suspects burnt exhaust valve. So, a compression test only tells part of the story. They should follow that by a leak-down test to find where the 'leak' is. Since they already have the plugs out this will take a few minutes per cylinder. That will tell them immediately if it is the injector, rather than just using the "try it and see" approach. Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I've got to update this because I'm sick to my stomach now. The shop called me and said that to do the repair would be over $5000 do replace the head gasket and do the valves. They said the valves for the 4.6 L Bosch were no longer available. I called Atlantic British (AB) to verify and they said that they are available and that I should take my p38 to a shop that knows better. He (tech at AB) said that a burned exhaust valve is extremely rare though and he doubts that's the problem given the compression in the cylinders. He thinks it's either a head gasket issue or....get this, a SLIPPED LINER!!!!!!! My mind is blown right now. Can anyone provide any sanity to this situation? How in the world do I determine what the heck is wrong with this thing? Isn't there a kit at autozone, etc, that shows if it's a blown Head Gasket? I have not noticed any coolant loss however I've only driven the vehicle 80 miles. The oil looked clean and black. Not milky at all. $5000, I nearly lost it. They can't even gaurantee that it's the problem. Yes, I am picking it up from them tomorrow. I will order a set of new leads tonight - magnacor(?) because why not. What are the symptoms of a slipped liner?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeWare Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I've got to update this because I'm sick to my stomach now. The shop called me and said that to do the repair would be over $5000 do replace the head gasket and do the valves. They said the valves for the 4.6 L Bosch were no longer available. I called Atlantic British (AB) to verify and they said that they are available and that I should take my p38 to a shop that knows better. He (tech at AB) said that a burned exhaust valve is extremely rare though and he doubts that's the problem given the compression in the cylinders. He thinks it's either a head gasket issue or....get this, a SLIPPED LINER!!!!!!! My mind is blown right now. Can anyone provide any sanity to this situation? How in the world do I determine what the heck is wrong with this thing? Isn't there a kit at autozone, etc, that shows if it's a blown Head Gasket? I have not noticed any coolant loss however I've only driven the vehicle 80 miles. The oil looked clean and black. Not milky at all. $5000, I nearly lost it. They can't even gaurantee that it's the problem. Yes, I am picking it up from them tomorrow. I will order a set of new leads tonight - magnacor(?) because why not. What are the symptoms of a slipped liner?? I've been a little quiet on this, because it can be many things and second-guessing a reliable shop is a bad idea. Hearing only the feedback, I didn't want to judge the shop's work. Yes, this could be a slipped liner, but that is very very unlikely. The reason I previously mentioned a leak-down test is because that would point to what it really is. The compression test has told you that there is a lower reading in one cylinder, but not much else. The compression test basically tests what the cylinder "pumps up to", dry. Another test is to do that "wet" (with oil squirted down the bore first). If that puts the readings all level it is probably a piston ring (basically, the oil seals the leak). The leak-down test then puts compressed air, via a small controlled orifice (hole) into the cylinder with the cylinder at top-dead-center (piston at top of stroke). This means the valves should be closed, and any leakage on one cylinder compared to all the others has to be found. The reading itself is meaningless as every gauge is calibrated differently and the hole size can vary. However, if the reading is higher, then that air is going somewhere. It should be quite easy to hear where. If it is valves then there will be airflow from the rocker cover. If it is rings (tested previously) it will appear in the sump (oil pan) which then comes out of the dipstick hole. If it is injector (which is highly unlikely) it will pressurize the fuel rail (but it makes no sense with the readings and symptoms you have, thus my previous doubts). The trouble is that similar things can appear the same, for example a hole in the piston and piston rings would be the same. To differentiate those you would put a scope (fiber-optic camera) down the plug hole. If you have a head gasket leak (not into a water way) it will either be into another cylinder or to the outside world. If to another cylinder you'd have had low pressure in another cylinder. If to the outside world (what I'd expect) you'd hear it using a stethoscope (we have a doctor "on staff" that may lend his if you're lucky!). If it is a slipped liner it could go either to the outside world (as it would have a head gasket leak with it) or into the oil pan again (which is the same as piston rings). There is no definitive test for that. Normally, you can hear a liner, but that can be mistaken for tappet noise. All that said, I wonder if the compression tester was properly seated .... $5000 is way too much for HG and new valve. HG is typically around $2000 plus parts (another 300-400). R and R of a valve maybe $150, but if you do the entire head then a lot more, but still not $5000. Now I have to go and do some work .... got some prices to work out .... Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pedram Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I agree with Graeme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeWare Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I agree with Graeme. Haven't you got a baby to deliver? Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pedram Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 My body doesn't work that way. .... Lol. No baby yet. Still not baked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Here's what I was just told by the shop (which I don't trust). "By wetting down cylinder 7 we gained 15psi." As a refresher - on that bank, dry was 165psi with the exception of #7 which was 120 psi. So wet, #7 went up to 135 psi. When asked about the leak down test they just said that it was a 60%loss and didn't nite where air went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHappel Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 PKelly, I forget, where are you located? I have little confidence in this shop based on your reports. Particularly after the $5000 estimate. I'm sure we can find somebody who can sort you out. Heck, Dan could probably put in a whole new (used) motor for less than that. I think you took the truck in originally for a mis-fire on #7, correct? And from there we've devolved into low compression and anything from a bad valve to slipped liner. I know you aren't in a position to take this project on yourself right now but low compression won't prevent you from driving it to another shop. My gut feeling is pay these guys for some diagnostic time and bring it home. We'll point you in a better direction (either for DIY, a club member who may be able to help, or another shop) from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHappel Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Oh, and _generally_ if you oil a cylinder with low compression and see an increase it indicates poor ring sealing. I'm no expert on these Rover motors but I don't often hear stories of bad rings on them. Sure it's possible but it doesn't seem a common failure. Were there any other issues with the truck? Smoke? (on start-up or under load) Using oil? I apologize if this has already been covered. I haven't been paying as much attention to this thread as I should since I know there are others like Graeme and Dan (to name just a few) who have more experience with these rigs than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeWare Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I know you aren't in a position to take this project on yourself right now but low compression won't prevent you from driving it to another shop. My gut feeling is pay these guys for some diagnostic time and bring it home. We'll point you in a better direction (either for DIY, a club member who may be able to help, or another shop) from there. I second that. Were the codes ever reset to see if they came back again? Is the fuel level low? If not then the code P1319 should never come as this is caused when the ECM gets a signal on pin 8 of connector E0637, which comes from the gauge cluster. The fuel sender resistance of greater than 158 Ohms (+/-8 Ohms) triggers this. So, that could mean a wiring or sender fault, giving high resistance. I would guess that the low fuel level light is also triggered at the same time, but am not sure. It would only need to trigger briefly to flag the fault, but you'd need low pressure too. All that points to low fuel pressure, which may be a fuel pump issue ..... I'd reset the faults and drive it ..... Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Again, I am grateful for the support. This is a great community. When I bought this last Saturday, it had no codes. The oil level was slightly low but within limits, the owner said he hadn't changed the oil since he bought it in November of 2014 so changing it was a priority to me. I brought my obdII code reader with me and scanned for codes and nothing was there. I drove it home to Modesto, CA from the East Bay. I felt pretty good on Monday so I went and bought some conventional Rotella 15/40 and new oil filter. I changed the oil and filter (while in a neck brace -- which sucked), started up the vehicle and got the service engine light. I plugged in the reader and came up with P0307 - Misfire @ #7 and the P1319. The vehicle had 1/2 tank of fuel at the time. I cleared the codes and drove it down the road, parked it, shut it off and started it back up and the service engine light reappeared, with the same codes -- Please keep in mind that I had a neck brace on while changing the oil and had neck surgery 4 weeks earlier...I was exhausted physically and mentally. I re-started it, opened the hood (bonnet!) and listed. I could hear a tapping noise but wasn't really alarmed by it. When I first started it up there was white smoke from the exhaust but I assumed that the vehicle was just cold. The coolant level had not appeared to change from the drive from the East Bay to Modesto. I am picking up the vehicle tonight from the shop and paying my $105 (they said they could/should charge me $210 because of the time) diagnostic fee. I will be parking it and there it will sit for a bit. Last night I ordered a set of magnecor "leads" so I will be putting those on next week. I put a call in to Dan and left him a message. I should probably email him to check his status. Here's where I stand -- I bought this for $2500. I am willing to invest into the top half of the motor - Head Gaskets and getting heads machined..etc ($1500??). but I simply cannot justify to my current fiance or myself --who I just bought a "fixer-upper" house with - the cost of complete new motor ($5000+). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astateofmike Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Again, I am grateful for the support. This is a great community. When I bought this last Saturday, it had no codes. The oil level was slightly low but within limits, the owner said he hadn't changed the oil since he bought it in November of 2014 so changing it was a priority to me. I brought my obdII code reader with me and scanned for codes and nothing was there. I drove it home to Modesto, CA from the East Bay. I felt pretty good on Monday so I went and bought some conventional Rotella 15/40 and new oil filter. I changed the oil and filter (while in a neck brace -- which sucked), started up the vehicle and got the service engine light. I plugged in the reader and came up with P0307 - Misfire @ #7 and the P1319. The vehicle had 1/2 tank of fuel at the time. I cleared the codes and drove it down the road, parked it, shut it off and started it back up and the service engine light reappeared, with the same codes -- Please keep in mind that I had a neck brace on while changing the oil and had neck surgery 4 weeks earlier...I was exhausted physically and mentally. I re-started it, opened the hood (bonnet!) and listed. I could hear a tapping noise but wasn't really alarmed by it. When I first started it up there was white smoke from the exhaust but I assumed that the vehicle was just cold. The coolant level had not appeared to change from the drive from the East Bay to Modesto. I am picking up the vehicle tonight from the shop and paying my $105 (they said they could/should charge me $210 because of the time) diagnostic fee. I will be parking it and there it will sit for a bit. Last night I ordered a set of magnecor "leads" so I will be putting those on next week. I put a call in to Dan and left him a message. I should probably email him to check his status. Here's where I stand -- I bought this for $2500. I am willing to invest into the top half of the motor - Head Gaskets and getting heads machined..etc ($1500??). but I simply cannot justify to my current fiance or myself --who I just bought a "fixer-upper" house with - the cost of complete new motor ($5000+). Reach out to Jeremy Pound, club member, and in Modesto. Maybe he can help out by looking at it and / or know of a better shop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 It's been done and he has been very helpful. Dan will be in town in late February and I'm hoping to get some of his time on this. Reach out to Jeremy Pound, club member, and in Modesto. Maybe he can help out by looking at it and / or know of a better shop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHappel Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I think you've got a solid plan. A-get it back home B-change the leads C-clear the codes and take it for a test drive D-report back If you didn't feel anything too bad on your drive home I doubt there's anything critical going on. The mis-fire indicated by the code could easily be the leads or other ignition related item so that's a good place to start and if not it you've done some worth-while preventive maintenance at minimal cost so all good. From your description I don't think you've lost a head gasket or valve (possible, but it doesn't seem probable). _Maybe_ a slipped liner, but again I'll defer to others there as I've never had to diagnose one myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I picked it up, argued with the shop that the valves are still available, payed my $105 diagnostic fee, cleared the code and drove it home. The service engine light did not come back on and the vehicle drove fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRover Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I picked it up, argued with the shop that the valves are still available, payed my $105 diagnostic fee, cleared the code and drove it home. The service engine light did not come back on and the vehicle drove fine. Nice. Glad you got out of there with minimal damage. -Jared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pedram Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Nice work everyone. Peter I hope you get things resolved without breaking your neck.... Pun intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOwen Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I picked it up, argued with the shop that the valves are still available, payed my $105 diagnostic fee, cleared the code and drove it home. The service engine light did not come back on and the vehicle drove fine. in aggregate, $105 for all the diagnostics and advice is pretty unscathed. ;-) Meaning, one less than honorable shop with a $5000 target combined with a great group of rover enthusiasts who can calm the nerves and diagnose the issue. I found this club the same way (well more than $105) and it has been great. Like you, started with help for a problem, in doing created friendships, which got me out on the trail more which created more confidence in the truck and my abilities, which got me out further all feeling like the next problem will be a learning experience thanks to the support of the great friends I have come to know in this group... Let me put the tissue away and just say welcome to the family ;-) See you on the trail one of these days... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco2Guy Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Awwwww. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hOsSNgxfcrQ/VCn6puFQXBI/AAAAAAAAAXE/Dy9f-ED9SX8/s1600/keep-calm-i-m-a-little-verklempt.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarrover Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Welcome to the club. I know it's little bit late welcome after all that is going on in this post.You P38 looks good. Hope to see you some time soon on trails. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkelly72 Posted February 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thanks. I'm trying to decide if I should buy the Head Gasket stuff now while theres free shipping. I've got a lot going on right now. I'm about to list my house for sale, get married and buy a house with my fiance. My plan is to be out on the trail by June of this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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